From: Sent: To: Cc: Kara Dansky 1/26/2020 6:54:12 AM "patrick Lappert" <patrick@lappertplasticsurgery.com> "QUENTIN VAN METER" <kidendo@comcast.net>, mike@drlaidlaw.com, "Fred Deutsch" <Fred.Deutsch@sdlegislature.gov>, "Natasha Chart" <natasha.chart@gmail.com>, "Vernadette Broyles" <vbroyles@childparentrights.org>, "Mary McAlister" <mmcalister@childparentrights.org>, "Michelle Cretella" <drmcretella@gmail.com>, "Katherine Cave" <kelseycoalition@gmail.com>, "David Pickup" <davidpickuplmft@gmail.com>, "Eunie Smith" <alaeagle@charter.net>, "Gary McCaleb" <mccgsm@gmail.com>, "Glenn Ridder" <glenn.ridder@outlook.com>, "Horvath Hacsi" <birdcatcher9@yahoo.com>, "Hudson, MD Bernard" <loyolamd82@gmail.com>, "James Shupe" <jamie.shupe@yahoo.com>, "Jane Robbins" <rlrobb123@gmail.com>, "MD Paul Hruz PhD" <hruz_p007@att.net>, "Margaret Clarke" <margaretclarke317@icloud.com>, "Matt Sharp" <msharp@adflegal.org>, "McHugh Paul" <pmchugh1@jhmi.edu>, "Monique Robles MD" <pamosa27@comcast.net>, "Richard Mast" <RMast@lc.org>, "Roger Brooks" <rbrooks@adflegal.org>, "Scott, Greg" <Greg.Scott@heritage.org>, "Timothy Millea MD" <TMillea@qcora.com>, "Walt Heyer" <waltsbook@yahoo.com>, "William Malone" <malone.will@gmail.com>, "Jeff Shafer" <jshafer@adflegal.org>, "Chris Motz" <cmotz@sdcatholicconference.org>, "Jon Hansen" <jon.hansen@sdlegislature.gov>, "Andre Van Mol" <95andrev@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Opposition strategy outlined in article. Have suggestions? - Physician-Patient relationship Request: if this is going off into a conversation about the pros and cons of male circumcision, could someone please take me off it? It's not that I don't care about that issue, it's just that it's a different issue than the one immediately before us. It would be beneficial, as a general matter, if people could update subject lines in order to track conversation topics. Thank you! Kara On January 26, 2020 at 9:48 AM, patrick Lappert <patrick@lappertplasticsurgery.com> wrote: Circumcision, having many historic dimensions, has also many justifications. The Mosaic covenant ceremony being the first, it has also been proposed in the past as a way of reducing cervical cancer. For most, it is cosmetic ( I want my boy to look like the other boys). There is no strictly valid medical indication apart from phimosis/ stricture. Regardless of the "indication" for circumcision, the key element to be remembered is that in all cases it is intended to serve the "gender" of the boy; that is it is in the service of the masculine sex, and meant to usher them into the right function of man as father and husband in their particular culture. IT IS NOT A PROCEDURE THAT, BY ITS NATURE, DESTROYS THE REPRODUCTIVE FACULTY. Patrick On January 26, 2020 at 9:07 AM QUENTIN VAN METER <kidendo@comcast.net> wrote: Just to play devil's advocate, how can we justify male circumcision when the medical benefits of such are equivocal? Obviously, there is a GIANT difference in the outcome of removing entire organs as opposed to just a bit of foreskin. I am thinking out loud about what the opposition might say in rebuttal. Quentin On January 26, 2020 at 12:56 AM Michael Laidlaw <mike@drlaidlaw.com> wrote: The following is along the lines of what Kara, Natasha, and Michelle have been saying. In fact Michelle and I and others once had a conversation about Olson-Kennedy’s teen mastectomy study. We concluded that it is not a scientific study at all, but a document filled with details of crimes by doctors against girls and young women. Here is my version rebutting the argument that this bill will cause an interference in the patient-physician relationship: Doctors who willfully harm patients are criminals. If a doctor drugs a patient unconscious and surgically removes her 14 year old, healthy breasts, this is a criminal act. The 14 year old cannot freely give consent to this procedure as she does not have the capacity to know what her self at age 25 or 30 years old would want. She can never have functional breasts replaced. Women who thought they were trans have regretted this happened to them. One such woman uses donor milk because she is physically incapable of producing milk after her mastectomy. Likewise an 11 or 12 year old cannot make an informed consent decision to stop normal puberty. Puberty blockers lead in the majority of cases to sterilization and sexual dysfunction. A boy or a girl of that age cannot possibly know or understand if their future self at age 25 or 30 would want a child and functional sexual relationships. They are not developmentally able to make such a decision. The physician who blocks normal puberty and places the child on a pathway to sterility - which is what happens in the majority of cases - is a criminal. The cases described here do not constitute healthy physician-patient relationships. Indeed these are not physician-patient relationships at all, they are criminal-victim relationships. The physician who does mastectomies of 14 year old breasts or provides 11 years old puberty blockers has willfully caused harm to a child - notwithstanding the desires or knowledge of the parents or child! The child is simply not able to consent to the harms that will result. Just as a girl could not possibly provide consent to female genital mutilation in another context. No matter if the parents and doctors all sign forms in agreement. The physician is ultimately responsible for the harms as he or she is the only one who can sign the prescriptions and use the scalpels and surgical tools in the operating room. The physician is criminal in these scenarios and must be prosecuted by the law. A just society cannot allow children - who by nature do not have the cognitive and developmental capacity to comprehend the damage to their bodies and reproductive capabilities - to undergo these harmful procedures. -Mike On 2020-01-25 10:05, QUENTIN VAN METER wrote: Short, sweet and top notch. Quentin On January 24, 2020 at 8:08 PM Michael Laidlaw <mike@drlaidlaw.com> wrote: All, I've recorded my SD testimony and put it up on YouTube. Please share: https://youtu.be/jBIDOSTgRTc -Mike On 2020-01-21 11:19, Natasha Chart wrote: Exactly. And even in the case of something like cancer, any sterilization is a side effect, rather than a goal, of a treatment for other purposes. There's no directive that children with cancer must be sterilized, and if doctors could prevent that outcome, surely they would. For no other type of child is that considered a humane end goal of treatment. On Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 1:46 PM Vernadette Broyles < vbroyles@childparentrights.org> wrote: Barring an actual physical disease state for which such interventions offer a cure. Puberty and a child's biological sex are not a disease. They are part of normal human development and human functioning to be protected in a developing minor. Vernadette Vernadette R. Broyles, Esq. President and General Counsel 5805 State Bridge Rd., Suite G310 Johns Creek, GA 30097 770.448.4525 vbroyles@childparentrights.org www.childparentrights.org On Jan 21, 2020, at 1:38 PM, Natasha Chart < natasha.chart@gmail.com> wrote: Kara will be joining us to testify, and I bet that she would be willing to join a statement saying that there's no definable class of person who needs to be sterilized as children. On Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 12:57 PM Vernadette Broyles < vbroyles@childparentrights.org> wrote: Fred and all, CPR-C can prepare a rebuttal this week to the ACLU that Mary (UCAL Berkely), Jane Robbins (Harvard Law), and I (Harvard Law, Guardian ad Litem for children) can sign and send. I can ask Kara Dansky (former ACLU lawyer) of Womens Liberation Front if she'd be willing to sign from the left. Mary's email re: involuntary sterilization would be key part of the response. We also need to stress the point the the ACLU is entirely missing the point of this bill — it nothing to do with discriminating against any class of children, but rather everything to do with protecting a vulnerable group of children, and all children (given the social contagion). While there may be a constitutional right to refuse to carry a child to term (under Roe), there is no constitutional right to chemically and surgically mutiliating one's healthy body, where there is no disease to be treated — that is child abuse. When would you need this? Vernadette Vernadette R. Broyles, Esq. President and General Counsel 5805 State Bridge Rd., Suite G310 Johns Creek, GA 30097 770.448.4525 vbroyles@childparentrights.org www.childparentrights.org On Jan 16, 2020, at 11:42 AM, Michael Laidlaw < mike@drlaidlaw.com> wrote: Very well stated Mary. On a different note, I have this new thread dispelling the "wrong puberty" argument. https://twitter.com/MLaidlawMD/status/1217698028858986497 -Mike On 2020-01-16 07:08, Mary McAlister wrote: Yes, and also point out that these procedures amount to involuntary sterilization of minors. They cannot legally or psychologically consent. Their parents cannot give informed consent since the knowledge necessary for informed consent does not exist. The Supreme Court struck down laws providing for sterilization of serial criminals in Skinner v. Oklahoma and mentally incompetent adults cannot be sterilized even if their guardians consent without a court order. Are the ACLU and similar groups advocating for involuntary sterilization of children? Also their equal protection arguments are without merit. " Transchildren" are not being treated differently from other children. In fact the opposite is true. This bill will ensure that "transchildren" have the same protections from dangerous medical experiments as do other children. On Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 8:55 AM Natasha Chart < natasha.chart@gmail.com> wrote: Agreed. On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 8:33 AM < drmcretella@gmail.com> wrote: Let's Memorize Katherine's response and repeat it ad nauseam regardless the question or accusation. That is the bottom line here. We must be bull dogs on this fact and principle. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 16, 2020, at 7:59 AM, Kelsey Coalition < kelseycoalition@gmail.co m> wrote: No doctor or parent has a right to subject a child to a life-altering medical experiment with unknown long-term consequences. Without this ban in place, SD will follow what is already happening in other states: minors who successfully sue in court to obtain this supposedly "life-saving" medical intervention. And when they grow up with irreversible regret, who will be liable? The state. This ban is also important to prevent custody battles. We have several parents who have reached out to the KC because of a former spouse who is intent on medicalizing their child. Finding an attorney to help is nearly as difficult as finding a therapist. And even when they do, who knows how a judge will rule? Banning these procedures will take these serious medical decisions away from misinformed judges. The claim that this is lifesaving medically necessary intervention is the big unchallenged domino that is driving both the legal and medical scandal. This is an oft-repeated claim with no support and it must be confronted directly. On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 6:47 PM Natasha Chart < natasha.chart@gmail.co m> wrote: The ACLU have done as much as anyone could to make sure it's impossible to define a class of persons under these laws. On Wed, Jan 15, 2020, 5:22 PM < drmcretella @gmail.com > wrote: M i k e , L o o k a t t h e m e d i c a l c l a i m i n t h a t " l e g a l " A C L U q u o t e ; i t i s f a l s e o n m u l t i p l e g r o u n d s " n o s u c h t h i n g a s a m e d i c a l l y d i a g n o s a b l e g r o u p o f t r a n s a n y b o d y ; w e a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t m i n o r s ! b l o c k e r s , w r o n g s e x h o r m o n e s a n d s u r g i c a l m u t i l a t i o n a r e n e v e r m e d i c a l l y n e c e s s a r y i n m i n o r s ! " S e n t f r o m m y i P h o n e O n J a n 1 5 , 2 0 2 0 , a t 5 : 0 0 P M , D a v i d P i c k u p < d a v i d p i c k u p l m f t @ g m a i l . c o m > w r o t e : T r a n s l a t i o n . . . " I t ' s o k t o h a r m b o y s b y r e m o v i n g b o d y p a r t s b e c a u s e a t l e a s t w e ' r e p r e s e r v i n g a c l a s s o f p e o p l e . " T h i s i s t h e h e i g h t o f p o l i t i c a l c o r r e c t n e s s . David Pickup, LMFT-S I (888) 288-2071 15851 Dallas Parkway, Suite 600 Addison, TX 75001 www.davidpickuplmft.com I M P O R T A N T N O T I C E : T h i s e m a i l i s m e a n t o n l y f o r t h e u s e o f t h e i n t e n d e d r e c i p i e n t . I t m a y c o n t a i n c o n f i d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n w h i c h i s l e g a l l y p r i v i l e g e d o r o t h e r w i s e p r o t e c t e d b y l a w . I f y o u r e c e i v e d t h i s e m a i l i n e r r o r o r f r o m s o m e o n e w h o w a s n o t a u t h o r i z e d t o s e n d i t t o y o u , y o u a r e s t r i c t l y p r o h i b i t e d f r o m r e v i e w i n g , u s i n g , d i s s e m i n a t i n g , d i s t r i b u t i n g o r c o p y i n g t h e e m a i l . P L E A S E N O T I F Y M E I M M E D I A T E L Y O F T H E E R R O R B Y R E T U R N E - M A I L A N D D E L E T E T H I S M E S S A G E F R O M Y O U R S Y S T E M . O n J a n 1 5 , 2 0 2 0 , a t 3 : 5 6 P M , M i c h a e l L a i d l a w < m i k e @ d r l a i d l a w . c o m > w r o t e : " T h e A C L U o f S D s a i d i n a s t a t e m e n t t h a t i t ' s u n c o n s t i t u t i o n a l t o s i n g l e o u t o n e g r o u p o f p e o p l e a n d c a t e g o r i c a l l y b a n a l l c a r e , n o m a t t e r h o w m e d i c a l l y n e c e s s a r y " . L e g a l e x p e r t s h a v e a n o p i n i o n o n t h a t s t a t e m e n t ? M i k e O n 2 0 2 0 0 1 1 5 1 1 : 5 9 , F r e d D e u t s c h w r o t e : U p d a t e d a n d e x p a n d e d a r t i c l e f r o m o u r s t a t e ' s l a r g e s t p a p e r . M a n y o f t h e l i n e s o f t h o u g h t t h e o p p o s i t i o n s w i l l u s e i s o u t l i n e d i n t h e a r t i c l e . L e t m e k n o w a n y r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s y o u m a y h a v e t o c o u n t e r . F r e d h t t p s : / / w w w . a r g u s l e a d e r . c o m / s t o r y / n e w s / p o l i t i c s / 2 0 2 0 / 0 1 / 1 5 / s o u t h d a k o t a l e g i s l a t u r e b i l l w o u l d p u n i s h d o c t o r s w h o p e r f o r m - s e x r e a s s i g n m e n t s u r g e r i e s l g b t / 4 4 7 6 3 4 2 0 0 2 / -- Follow us on Twitter □ YouTube □ Facebook <blocked.gif> www.KelseyCoalition.org <PastedGraphic-14.png> <PastedGraphic-14.png> Patrick W. Lappert, MD 8263 Madison Blvd. Suite E Madison, AL 35758